S5E2: Know Your Map with Michael Roderick - From Broadway to Business

This week, Pam and special guest Michael Roderick discuss the importance of transparency, asking for help, and engaging others' creativity to unlock new opportunities and overcome challenges. Michael shares his journey from Broadway producer to consultant and the development of his unique approach to networking, which focuses on making people feel useful rather than used.

✅  5 Key Lessons:
1. Don't be afraid to ask for help and broaden the question to engage others' creativity.

2. Focus on making people feel useful rather than used when networking.

3. Build a web of connections where everyone benefits, rather than climbing a ladder.

4. Be transparent about your challenges to receive the support you need.

5. Avoid becoming "connection rich and cash poor" by being strategic in your networking efforts.

✨ Check out Michael's Referability Rater:
http://www.myreferabilityrater.com/

🎩 Connect with Michael: 
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mike.roderick.940
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michael-roderick-1161571/ 

Transcript

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Geared towards you, and it's geared towards what you're trying to accomplish. And it basically puts people in the position where they are, whether or not they want to, whether or not they're interested, whether or not you're interested. They're in a position where they feel used instead of useful. Right? And what I started to think about. Was, hey, I'm Pam Prior, and this is the Cash Flow podcast. We're going to talk about everything related to money in your business. Without further ado, let's hop right in. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to Cash Flow. This is a very unique, one of our know your map segments that I'm so excited about. This is where, if you remember, we celebrate the relationships in business, the ones that shape our successes, help us learn from our failures, kind of everybody, from mentors to those unexpected surprises in the people that we meet on our entrepreneurial path. And today we're going to talk to one of my unexpected surprises, who has been here kind of feeling like a net to me or a rock that I can go to and look at whenever I need to. Remember that we're not here alone. So I want to introduce you to Michael Roderick. He's the CEO of small pond Enterprises. It's a company that helps thoughtful givers, a lot of our listeners, correct, become thought leaders, helping make their brands referable, their messaging memorable, and mostly their ideas, unforgettable. So they stick in the minds of the people they're working to attract. He's also the host of the podcast access to anyone. And we're going to drill in on this because he shows you on that podcast, which you all ought to listen to, that how you can get to know anyone you want to in business and actually in life using some time tested relationship based principles. And I want to dig in on that term with him. His unique methodology comes from his own experience of going from being a high school english teacher to something I didn't know, a Broadway producer in under two years. So he uses Broadway informed branding techniques to help his clients find their innovative framework, and he creates offers where they can get paid for their brands. So, Michael, welcome. I'm so glad you're here. My very first question, what Broadway shows did you produce? Yeah, so I was on American Idiot, which was the Green Day musical that was done. I also worked on a show called the Scottsboro Boys, which was. It was one of the last shows that Kander and Eb, who wrote Cabaret, it was one of the last ones that they developed with. Yes, it was a musical. Susan Stroman. Very, very famous court case of nine black men who were accused of raping a white woman. And basically, the trial kept going back to trial. It just kept going on and on and on. So what they did was they reconfigured that entire story as a musical minstrel show. It was a fascinating, fascinating piece of theater and. And just an incredible piece to, to, to work on. Yeah, it was from the story itself. Or was there a book or something before that? As far as I know, it was from, like, historical. From historical accounts. There may have been some books that were part of sort of the underlying property of it, but from. From what I understand, it was they had a number of historical accounts, and then they sort of filled in the. Filled in the pieces. Wow. That is amazing. So what, I guess, first of all, sort of, how long were you on Broadway and what moved you away from that? Yeah, so I worked. I worked in Broadway from probably about 2008 to 2011. 2012, I think, was one of the last times I raised money on a show officially. And I think the thing that really kind of moved me away from it was the fact that when you're raising money as a Broadway producer, it's the same thing kind of over and over and over again. So the joke I would make about it would be, it's like you're climbing this tree, and it's a real pain in the butt to climb, and you're getting smacked with branches on the way up, and it's just brutal. And you get to the top, and there's this beautiful view. I mean, it's an amazing, wonderful view. But the second that you're done looking at that view, there's somebody at the bottom of the tree saying, hey, you got to come back down and do the whole thing over again. Do you have to keep raising for the same show, or you're just raising for the next one at that point? Yeah, exactly. You would just raise for the next one at that point. And sometimes, you know, producers will get to a point where one of their shows has been so successful that really they can spend most of their time just kind of in the world of development. Right. They can spend time just doing readings and things like that. But for a lot of Broadway producers, the journey is really raising money, get your name on a show, raise money, get your name on a show, build credibility, eventually become a lead producer, if that's what you desire to do. Okay, so you saw that option and said, not for me. Yeah. Yeah. I just, I think the thing about me, and I think this is why I do the work that I do is I'm wired for novelty. I just, like, after a certain period of time, I'm always thinking, is there a different way to do this? Is there a different angle? Is there a different way to think about. Think about this. And when I sort of looked at the trajectory, and I did the same thing when I was looking at teaching. Right. The trajectory, it was the same. It was looking like it was going to be the same thing sort of over and over and over again. Yeah. And I just did not want to end up in that, in that scenario. Yeah. Now that makes, that makes complete sense. So what did you, I'm just going to map through this. Then I got some deeper dive questions for you. But where did you go? Like, did you have a place to go? Did you just say, I'm done, and then go off on your own? What? Yeah. Happened after that stint. Yeah. So it moved into originally just consulting in the entertainment space, where there were just a lot of people who they wanted to talk to, a producer who had already raised money and sort of learn, how do I raise money? How do I get this show off the ground? How do I, you know, so there was a lot of, like, consulting on sort of the back end of the work that people wanted to do on the producing side. But eventually people started asking me more and more. They're like, how, how did you even get people to connect with you, to write these checks for you and all these different types of things? And the more that people would ask me about that, the more I would start to think about, well, maybe there is. How did I process behind it? Maybe there are some principles. And I was getting my masters at the time, time in educational theater, and one of the things that I had learned about was simulations and how even if somebody is just acting out a scenario and simulating a scenario, even though they know they're acting, they often act as they would in real life. Really? Yeah. And you see it all the time with simulated experiences where somebody will literally tell you, okay, we're going to act out this, you know, this scenario, but so, so often you just go off of whatever your instinct is in that sort of believed situation. So I started hosting these workshops where I would simulate these networking experiences, and I'd have people act out things like one on one meetings, job interviews, cocktail parties. And I started to notice that there were these patterns in how people interacted. And I always like to say that patterns are the precursors to frameworks. I love that. It's a great line by the way, thank you. So I saw that and I started to say, okay, can I build frameworks around relationship building? And when I started teaching that, it tied to this thing that I've spent a lot of time thinking about over the past couple of years, which is, if you can develop a bigger idea, you basically leave your niche. You stop niching down, and you basically niche up. Right. Like, you turn into this. This idea or this concept that suddenly an audience doesn't say, are you in my industry? They ask, does what you do fit my industry? Yeah. Can you bring that to my industry? And what I discovered while I was building out those frameworks was, I was like, well, yes, this works to get into rooms and have conversations with people who want to give you money, but heck, this could work anywhere. Exactly. Can work if you are selling something. This process can work if you're trying to find a partner, if you're trying to connect with somebody that you always thought was influential and you weren't sure if they'd ever sort of talked to you. Right. And when I saw that, I was like, you know what? This is not the Broadway anymore. Right, exactly, exactly. And that led to saying, okay, where is the other business use case here? Yeah, I love this because one of the things, this hits on so many cylinders, because one of the things we all hate, especially, first of all, your journey, sounds very similar to what happens to those of us who've left corporate. We leave, then we consult with what we already know. Yeah. What you've said that I never put together before is we realize there's a pattern and that pattern becomes a framework, and then the framework leads us to something else. I mean, that's a really cool, like, path I've never really put together before. But the thing I particularly like about this is that you didn't, didn't hesitate to say, networking doesn't have to be the thing we've all learned it was. Right. Yes. Because everybody could have been immediately turned off. Like, I love the name of your workshop, access to anyone, and I'm going to dig into what that's made me think about here in a minute. But, yeah, to me, like, the word network has a really awful connotation to it. Yes. How have you dealt with that kind of, in your business, to kind of shake people up and say, that's not what this is about? Yeah. Well, I think that the thing is networking at, at its heart is presented and taught as climbing a ladder. Yes. And climbing a ladder is always geared towards you, and it's geared towards what you're trying to accomplish. And it basically puts people in the position where they are, whether or not they want to, whether or not they're interested, whether or not you're interested. They're in a position where they feel used instead of useful. Huh? Right. Yep. And what I started to think about was, it's not about climbing a ladder, it's about spinning a web. And the larger the web that we spin, the easier access becomes, because ultimately our access is tied to interest. It's tied to is somebody interested enough in talking to us for any type of any particular reason? And in some cases they're interested because a close friend of ours is willing to vouch for us and say, I want you to meet this particular person. And in other instances, they want to meet us because of an idea or a concept that we've developed, that they say, that idea or concept is so interesting to me that I want to be around you, I want to hear the types of things that you have to say. So what I realized as I was sort of looking through this, and I was looking at all the issues that were sort of existing within this sort of networking space, if you spend the time thinking about how are all of the different parts of the web benefiting from the experiences, then you are going to benefit. You are going to have opportunities that happen for you, but everybody within that circle, they are going to feel useful, they are not going to feel used. They are going to feel like they are part of something, and they're a part of helping and supporting. And that's really what we want. Right? We want a world in which access is not limited to just one industry, group of people, etcetera. We want a world where access is. Much more open and mutually desired. Exactly where we're thinking about sort of what does the other person want? And when I kind of shifted from that into this world of thought leadership, that's when I started to realize, like, this is really what it comes down to. If we want our ideas to be shared, they 100% have to benefit the people who are sharing the ideas. If we are not thinking about that, if we are not thinking about how does the thing I share with you benefit you and the people within your world, you're not going to want to share that idea. You're not going to want to spend time talking about it or because it's not benefiting you, it's not helping you. So it's like when we start to see the world through other people's eyes, all of this becomes significantly easier and the whole sort of access problem really shifts and changes. Wow. There is so much in that last chunk that you just said. So, you know, I definitely participated in the network events where you stand there and, you know, somebody's looking over your shoulder to see who's in the room. That's more important. And I was a CFO in corporate, and when I was employed, everybody lined up to talk to me. And when I was unemployed, I could have been a fly on the wall. And that's how I realized, you know, who was really somebody I wanted to be around, not because so much. I don't think it was a fault of the people. Now that I've listened to you talk about it, I don't think they were crappy people. I think you're right. Networking was a ladder climbing tool. Yeah. And this you've articulated for me the good side of. I like calling it access as opposed to networking. Yeah. But it's a web. Like, that's the first time I've had an image I can take away that what is different about what we're doing today? And I know your map, it kind of started because I am that geek who literally has a mind map of everybody who's I've got a meaningful relationship with and where it came from. Right? So I do. That's kind of how I do my gratitude. Every day I start at one of the ends and work my way back and think about everybody along the chain, then pick another one the next day. And you have these hub people, of which, frankly, you're one in my map, that have through them, and you probably don't even know all the people I've gotten to know because of you. Right? So one of the things Michael did, and I just want to share this because I think it's so important. When I first got into entrepreneurship, I didn't know my head from a hole in the ground or from a hole in the ground. And he had a group on Facebook, still does today, called give me the name again. I'm drawing a blank. The gate group. The gate group. I don't actually look at the name anymore. I just look at it in that group. There are hashtags you can use for asking help, for giving help, for anything you want to do and interact. And I noticed in that group it was a little different from every other group in that people participated, and it was value that was being offered and asked for. And you taught me that asking for help is okay. You probably don't even know that very early on in this journey, of entrepreneurship. Michael has, like I said, he's always been there in the background checks. You know, I'll check in with him and he'll check in with me. We don't. This is probably the most we've ever talked. Yeah. In our, what, seven year relationship. I know, but I always knew and know that it's a meaningful one. And the whole purpose of this podcast, similar to yours, is that networks. Network we're working is not a dirty word. It's. But you have really captured the essence of it in access to anyone. Thank you. So one of the things I think there's probably just hearing you articulate that. Now I want to come find out how I can do this. Whatever your coaching you're doing. Now, I want to find out how I can do it with you, because there, there are things that will be light bulbs, it sounds like. Yeah. In the whole process, when you've been going through this like that move from Broadway to, okay, I got to do something here. You were doing the consulting. You were doing things. So clearly, relationships have been key in your evolution as an entrepreneur and beyond. Who is kind of the first person after you jump ship to really move you forward in the new business. I like to talk about the key relationships that have kind of popped up, either by surprise or on purpose. Yeah. I mean, I think that what can happen is that sometimes we'll sort of get into that channel of whatever industry we're in. Right. And we sort of stay within that industry and we sort of stay within that world, and there's not a lot of things that sort of open us up. Right. And sort of shift, you know, that type of dynamic. Yeah. And I had a friend within the theater world named Ciara Pressler, who really great, like, marketing mind, it sort of helped a lot of people within the theater world. And she would periodically let me know about sort of different events and different things that were going. That were going on. And she invited me to a marketing conference, and she brought a bunch of her friends together. And one of those friends was someone who you've probably met before is Jeff Madoff. And I think I have. Oh, interesting. So Jeff did pretty much, like, all of the video production for Victoria's Secret for a number of years. He worked with. Yeah, he worked with Ralph Lauren on his brand Bible. Okay. And the most interesting sort of element of, like, tying to what we're talking about is Jeff hosted a class at Parsons. Okay. Creative careers, where he bring in all of these entrepreneurs from all these different creative backgrounds at very, very high levels. Like, really, really interesting. Like, Tim Ferriss spoke in his class. Like, wow, okay. Yeah. You know Damon Jones. Yep. Okay, we're back. All right, so, yeah, so, Jeff. So Jeff was hosting, you know, this class, and he had guests like Tim Ferriss and Damon John and all these, like, really interesting, different types of creatives and creatives. What he did was he basically said to all of us, if you want to come and just sit in on the class, you're welcome to. So I would go every week and sit in on that class. And then if I met somebody who I thought it would be really interesting for Jeff to meet, what I would do is I would say, jeff hosts this class, and I'd reach out to Jeff and I say, hey, can I bring them to your class? And then they would get a chance to, you know, hear some really great speakers. Jeff would be able to connect, and Jeff kind of expanded the people that I knew, right, as well as Ciara, sort of expanding sort of that community and folks that I knew. And that's what led to meeting a lot of these folks who are in more of that sort of, like, entrepreneurial. Entrepreneurial space. And when that whole kind of world started, actually, that reminds me of a really interesting, like, you follow the thread sort of all the way back. Yes. Ciara also introduced me to this guy, Sebastian Marshall, who was. Yeah, like, he was this. He was this person who, like, loved, like, ideas and thinking. Like, every time you, like, meet with him, he just, like, ask you, like, tons of questions about you and, like, what you were working on. And he was doing some work, I believe, at the time, in the not for profit space. Like, he was helping on the fundraising kind of side of things. And this was actually my first discovery of the most powerful form of asking. If I go all the way back, this was my first discovery of this, because, in my estimation, when we basically ask in a way that encourages somebody else's creativity, we get something that we would never have expected. So at the time, I was experimenting with this type of ask, which I. Which. Which I've referred to as the indirect. Do you have anything you can give us? If it were a fundraising scenario, a direct ask is, do you want to invest in this show? An indirect ask. It's. I'm currently raising money. You have done this before. You're really. You've been successful. You've sort of had this, you know, process. Do you have any ideas as to how I could go about raising money for this venture? And in some cases, they give you advice, some cases, they connect you to somebody. You get introductions or sort of whatever the scenario was. So when I had that meeting with Sebastian, he asked me what most people end up asking you, which is this aspect of what can I do for you or how could I be helpful for you? And I said, you know, I am finding that when I am on larger platforms sharing these ideas, that ends up being the best business sort of opportunity for me. And I'm curious, do you have any ideas of places where I should be focusing that energy, places where I should be speaking about that type of thing? And he said, you know, I really think you should be on my friend Shrine's podcast. And that was the unmistakable creative, which at the time was a pretty popular show. And I ended up on. I ended up on the show and then I ended up meeting all of these people through his world. I went to a conference that he hosted, and it just grew and sort of grew from there. And I think the thing that it's so important to think about is that we limit the things we get in life when we limit other people's creativity. God, that's brilliant. I just love that. And like you said, say you had just said, well, you support my show, and he'd written you a check. Great, that show would have been supported, but the whole journey would have been cut off right at the knees before it ever started. Exactly. Exactly. That is a huge takeaway. And I want to reemphasize kind of what I heard and tell me if I got it right, but basically is don't when you need help. First of all, we all need help, and we give help. We're capable of giving help when you need help. Maybe broaden the question to engage the other person's creativity, and they might give you what you think you want, but they may very well give you a lot more. And it doesn't, you won't even realize it until further down the road. And I think that the thing that's so interesting is that we believe that we know what we want, but how often? That's brilliant. How often do we ask for that thing that we want? And we're really not actually getting the thing that we need or setting up an environment where we can get that thing that we really like, that we actually need, because we've already made our assumptions about what it is that we want and what it is that we're looking for and what it is that's going to do it and sort of solve the problem. And I can't tell you the number of times where somebody would turn down an introduction because they didn't see the direct connection to cash. Right. They didn't see the correct connection to, like, how is this person going to be a client when that person had access to an entire audience of people that would have spent way more money on that person than that one individual, but they turned it down because they. Didn'T see it down. And I think it's interesting because one of the things that I did in corporate, in between jobs was literally set up a job to find a job. And I remember getting some really good advice from an ex boss of mine who said, it's not about applying for jobs, it's not about resumes. Sure, do that stuff if you want to. It's all about adding value, going out to meet people. They didn't call it this, but it's building that web. And sure enough, that was the reality of how to get a job. That is the reality of how to build your business. That's the reality of how to, you end up making some of the best friends in the world because it takes the transactional out of it. And as long as you can do that. I find, people find that very hard, though, that if it's not, you know, I've got to go to this conference, and I expect to get this many clients from this conference. No, you expect to build your web, which will give you so many more clients in the long run. You know, which is, it's such a. You've really dropped some gold here. And if that's an example of what's available and that you cover in the, your whole program, that is. That is an immense giveaway you've just provided us. So I appreciate that. Yeah, it's a. It is so. It is so interesting. And I want to address something that you just brought up. And I think that the thing that we sometimes forget about is that when the wolf's at the door, everybody's interested in a silver bullet. Right. And the higher the level of stress we are in in regards to what it is that we need or what it is that we're trying to do can eliminate a lot of our sophistication in terms of how we're interacting with others, because we're trying to get that thing as quickly as possible and we're feeling the stress of the need for that thing. So it's so important to periodically check in with yourself and ask yourself, am I being this direct because of the situation that I'm in? And is it as dire as I really think it is because I think we also sometimes can create this thing in our minds of how scary everything is, how bad everything is, how this isn't going to work. You know, this isn't going to work out. And in many cases, we end up shooting ourselves in the foot with those relationships because we try to go for something too quickly. And the other person's like, yeah, I don't know you, so why are we. Why are we talking about this high level thing or this big thing when I don't really know you? I don't really necessarily trust you yet because we haven't spent some time really getting to know each other and understand each other. And, yeah, I think that that's a big, big piece of it as well. What I love about that story is that when that tends to happen when somebody kind of just comes up and, you know, can you do this? The sort of the cold call out of nowhere thing I kind of had, you've changed me from kind of being a little bit offended by that to, oh, this person's probably under a lot of stress right now, and they're reverting to things that they need to do, like that. It's not necessarily that. Yeah, person. Or it's. It's. There's a situation probably driving that sort of thing, or they've never had access to any process. Yeah. And you're tapping into you something. So sorry to interrupt, but that you're tapping into something that I think is so, so important. And I think it's probably one of the most dangerous lessons within the whole sort of networking, teaching, is that people will do things like call people an energy vampire. They'll call them takers. They'll call them this, like, horrible person who's trying to only get. And yeah, we do not know what is going on in that person's life. We do not know if they are literally living in fight or flight right now. And that is informing most of their decisions. That is such an important. Take a pause and it's going to cause me to rethink a little bit because it manifests in so many ways. But you see it in the LinkedIn cold DM's and you see it. And I tend to just go like, oh, well, that's not a person I want to know. And that may not be true because one of the things you said, I have always found, no matter how much I feel like an outsider in a room or I'm meeting a stranger, like, once you take a minute to talk to that person, there is such depth behind each. Each one of us, that we just assume when we're passing them on the street, they're, oh, they're in New York or hurrying to work. No, they've got a whole life happening just like you do. And that is such a really important reminder to me, I think I, that's really, really good. So one of the things also that I really want to get at is probably like every entrepreneur, you've had a crash, right? Or like you just described, like the things. It's like heart, blood to the heart and lungs. Everything's caving in on me. Yeah. I don't know what to do. And you are a real proponent of asking for help. Did that always come naturally to you, or did somebody come to your aid at some point when you didn't ask for it? And, yeah, tell me a little bit about that. I will probably never forget this particular moment. I had gone off on my own. I was rolling down the Broadway producing work, and I was kind of just getting started on the consulting side, and I was selling the networking stuff. And the networking stuff. Okay. I hadn't repositioned it very well yet. I hadn't really kind of, like, gotten answer to the place where it needed to be. And the business, like, it just, it got to a point where I, it was really dire, where there was just no sort of money to be found sort of in any area. And I will never forget laying on my couch in Hell's Kitchen, contemplating sending an email about my situation to the people that I knew and thinking about how, like, you know, how much of a loser I felt, like, how awful I felt that I didn't, you know, land like it, you know, that I didn't get this thing off the ground. How many people believed I was so successful when I wasn't? And I think, like, there is a real danger, especially with people who are lovely giving, helping people to become connection rich and cash poor. And you have to be very, very careful of that. You gotta be very, very careful. Great point. So I will never forget sitting down and writing an email where I sent it out to probably like 50 or even 100 of the people that I had met sort of over the years. And I called it self. I titled the email self assessment. And I wrote to that group, I said, basically, you know, I'm going to be completely honest. I just had a meeting where I couldn't even pay for the coffee for the meeting. And I am struggling as a business owner. I am not getting the things that I need to make happen, and I am just opening myself up right now. If anybody has any ideas or any thoughts as to what I can do, I am more, like, I am more than willing, even if you just want to meet me for coffee and like, you know, and let me cry a little bit, like, pay for it, damn it. Right? Like, you know, let's, you know, I'm open to anything. And I remember spinning this. Wow. And thinking like, well, that's it, right, everybody, that's it. All of a sudden my phone just like starts pinging, right? And like, I'm getting these emails back from people me like, oh, my God, I had no idea that was going on, you know, this etcetera. And then I get a call from one of my producing friends who I had mentored her and sort of helped her, you know, get into the business. And she calls me up and she says, listen, I don't know how much you need to get out of the hole that you need to get out of right now, but I have a friend who works in tech and money is not an issue for him and he wants to produce a reading in the city. I'm going to introduce you and I want you to just tell him what you would charge to produce the reading to cover what you're behind on. And I am sure that he will say yes. She introduces me to the guy and two days later I have, like, I've got that contract. I've got that contract and I've pulled it, you know, and, you know, back from the, you know, back from the ashes. And I think, like, I think that the most important thing about that is there are so many people out there who help and support and do so much for everybody else who never take the time to just simply let folks know when things are not going well, when there are challenges and where there are issues. And if you do, it will help you. Like there, there are, yes, there are going to be people who are going to talk like, I certainly got a bunch of MLM emails, you know, when I sent, you know, when I sent that out, people who wanted to coach me on my mindset and all, you know, and all this other stuff, right? But the real people in your life, they will see the situation. They will understand and they will help you. They will support you. That is a beautiful, beautiful story. And they love to help at that point because you've probably touched a lot. Touched or in what I found is generally we've touched our influence or made a huge difference in a lot of people's lives and we don't even know it, like, there's so many people, like, a casual thing you might have said over coffee three years ago, and it changed their life or whatever it might be, and they want to give that back. And you said something self. You said, connection rich and cash poor is such a great line. Because I think that is true. I probably been guilty of that myself at times. And I found out recently how important it is every now and then to just say, you know what? Things aren't going well, and I need help. And that was probably one of the toughest things I've ever done. Like, you remember exactly where you were. I remember exactly where I was. And it's. It's an awesome growth moment because this is where I think karma really shows itself. And often we have to ask in order for it to show itself. That's the thing that I think is so kind of meaningful about that story. Yeah. And what you're bringing up is, you know, there, I think that, again, there's all this teaching of karma and the universe, and, like, you just do these things and the good will come to you and it'll all work out. But the thing that is never sort of addressed or talked about is that the universe is on its own timeline. Right, right. Like, there are things outside of your world that, you know, there's a lot of other stuff in the world that depends more than you getting back something that you sent it, you know, you sent around. So you need to make sure that people are aware of what's going on, where you are, what it is that you need, what it is that you. Use, so they can turn their head and go, oh, okay, let me help. I would never look over here if I had known. Exactly. That's beautiful. Yeah, it's so, so. It's so, so powerful. And, I mean, I remember reading Robert Cialdini's influence, which, you know, a lot of folks, you know, know very well. And I tend to remember, like, certain moments in books at, you know, at certain times. And the one part of that book that just, like, really landed was this idea of, if you are, if you were having a heart attack in a crowd, don't shout into the crowd, point to a person and say, you, I need help. Right? Yep, yep. And then they'll do it. The crowd won't do anything. They'll stand there looking. But if you identify somebody and say, do this. Exactly. And I think that that's the thing. It's like, we sometimes assume that if we just sort of post something or put something out there, and this, this ties to a lot of the stuff that happens in thought leadership as well, where it's like if I just sort of shout it to the crowd, then you're going to bring me business. And really what we should, we shouldn't be thinking, should I shout to the crowd? It should be, should I whisper to the person who needs it most? That is beautiful. All right, so I am absolutely in love with you, pedagogy here, the way you talk, the way you do. So I need to know for myself and for these listeners who I've forgotten all about right now, quite honestly. Just kidding, guys. I love you, but this is like, I feel like this is, as I saw Mel Robbins say recently in an interview of hers, this is, I feel like I've just gotten a personal coaching session, which is beautiful, but I want to know, how do you work with people and what does that look like and how could somebody get more information on that? Because I want to know more. I'm sure our listeners do, too. So I run them. I run a mastermind every, usually every couple of months, roughly every quarter, called hit makers, where I bring subject matter experts together and I have them stress test those big ideas that they have and figure out what is the bigger idea, what's the thing that's going to get them beyond their niche. And then we look at how do we package it up? How do we share those ideas and get those things out there? And also, how do you engage that web? Right? Like, how do you sort of leverage that network to help you and support you? And then I also do this work one on one where I really dig into the thought leadership piece and how it ties to where you're kind of investing your time and your energy. So I'm always kind of looking at, okay, if you're coming up with an idea or a concept, are you actually tapping into that network? Are you asking people for the things that you need? Are you threading those communities together and sort of developing those types of opportunities? So I do some of that work in sort of short, one on one intensives as, as well. Yeah. Love that. Okay, cool. And how do people reach out to you? We're going to drop all of this in the notes, guys, be it YouTube or podcasts, so you'll have access to this. But how do people get started with. One of the best ways is I've got a tool. It's just@myreferrabilityrater.com and people can take a test to see sort of how referable they are. It'll tell you sort of what it is, then they can get on. I read a daily email about these concepts and basically they can get on my daily email. I'm also very, very accessible myself on LinkedIn, on the book of faces, all those different sort of channels that I can vouch for. I've never sent a note or an email or DM to Michael that I have or a comment on a post that he hasn't jumped in on. And so inside these different options, either the mastermind that, you know, is that a short term mastermind? Yeah, for hit makers, hitmakers is a twelve week. So it's kind of medium length. It's not a year long program or anything, but it's, you know, it's enough of a time to basically be able to go out and test things in the market. Right. And see what's working. Yeah, I love this. And the one on one work, they could find you for that as well. And you could probably focus that on the thing they want to do the most, I guess. Absolutely. Thrilled. So my referabilityfinder.com, we will drop that in the notes. I'm gonna probably ping on it today. Not probably, I'm gonna ping on it today because that's a fascinating question. Great. By the way, just a quick clarification. It's myreferabilityrater.com. i don't know if what finder would send you to. My refer actually said radar, but my referrality. Rater.com. rater.com. I know people are going to be clicking on that when they're listening and then get on the daily email list. Now I've always followed you on Facebook, but I really look forward to actually having you in my inbox every day. And I can't wait to see what other wisdom lies there. So you know how, how fond I am of you and what you've done around me. And this is a very perfect example of what it is to weave that web because we've been on each other's sort of outer orbits for a long time and we said, hey, I'd love to have you on this on my know your map podcast because I really think they, they intersect what we're talking about. And, you know, now I'm ready to say, okay, hey, wow, I think there's something here that I could do some help with. And so it's a beautiful example, a nice meta example of what you're talking about in action. I so appreciate it. And I appreciate you having me. Very, very blast. Oh, I love having. I'm so glad you came. I just. It's. You're the perfect guest for this show, and I can't thank you enough for taking the time to be on with us. All right, everybody, you know how to reach Michael. You know you can find him on any of the socials. Trust me, I'm in there in the groups that he runs. So hop in and follow up, because as you can tell from this podcast, there's a lot of gold to be mined here. And, and it's all in learning about the thing that's most important to me on this show, which is know your map and understand how this all works to elevate your business and your life. So welcome again, Michael. Thank you. And I'll see everybody next week on our next cash Flow podcast. Take care. Thanks so much for watching the cash flow podcast with us. We want to bring more and more of this to you, so please, like share, subscribe, comment so that we can keep bringing more of this content to.