S5E14: Know Your Map with Heather Pearce Campbell

This week Pam chats with Heather Pearce Campbell, a legal advocate for entrepreneurs. 

Heather shares her journey from law school to building her business and we discuss her unique career path, the impact of relationships in business, and her mission to offer proactive legal solutions. 

Connect with Heather: 
www.linkedin.com/in/HeatherPearceCampbell
www.facebook.com/HeatherPearceCampbell
www.twitter.com/_HeatherPearce
www.instagram.com/thelegalwebsitewarrior
https://www.youtube.com/@HeatherPCampbell

Work with Heather: 
Heather's Legal Basics Bootcamp: https://www.legalwebsitewarrior.com/legalbasicsbootcamp/

Heather's website: www.legalwebsitewarrior.com

Transcript

0:00

I was not willing to walk somebody else's path. I was not willing to even follow the traditional advice around. Here's how you have to do things in order to get to, you know, point Z. You have to do ABC and blah, blah, blah. And it, you know, lost. Was that in your nature before your mom got so sick, or do you think it was because your mom got so sick? Appreciation for that's a really good question. Yeah, I think it was in my nature before that. Yeah, I was an unusual kid in a variety of ways, but, but that really crystallized it, like from the standpoint of, you know, when you're faced literally with the death of somebody that is so dear to you, you know, it, it changes your perspective on timelines, it changes your perspective on how you spend your own time in life. And hey, welcome back to the Cash. Flow podcast with me, Pam Prior. Glad to have you here where we. Talk about everything money related in your business. So without further ado, let's hop right in. And welcome back, Cash Flow Friends. I am so excited for another know your map segment with a very special friend of mine from the Mind Map. I tell you so much about the mind map of awesome relationships, from known mentors to those wonderful kind of unexpected surprises we all have of those special relationships that bring human connection to our entrepreneurial or career journeys, whichever you're in. And on this show, we let you hear from the people on my relationship map. And yes, indeed, I do have an actual mind map of relationships that are meaningful to me, of how I met everyone. But you hear about their own relationships and how they've mattered to their business and their own personal trajectory because this can be a lonely business that we're in as entrepreneurs. So without further ado, let's dive in to meet Heather Pierce Campbell, who is a newer part of my map and actually has two connections on my map that are totally disassociated, which is kind of fun. And I know you're going to agree that she's a breath of fresh air in a very. What's the word I'm looking for? Dry. We'll call it a dry profession. So here we go. Let's talk about Heather for a quick minute because we hit it off immediately. She is a warrior mama, a nature lover, and a dedicated attorney and a legal coach for entrepreneurs. She's based in Seattle and is mom to two little wild munchkins, founder of Pierce Law and Home, which is home to her legal practice. She's also, and this is one of the things I really Love the creator of the legal website Warrior, which is an online business that provides the legal education and support to information entrepreneurs. So coaches, consultants, online educators, speakers, authors around the US but also around the world. Personally, she hoards a lot of information, paper and books while she's secretly dreaming of becoming a minimalist. How many of us have that disease? And she relishes that occasional rare night with her husband when the kiddos are miraculously asleep and she can soak up HGTV without guilt. She's also the host of the Guts, Grit and Great Business Podcast, which I'm honored to be a guest on tomorrow. So, Heather, welcome. Thank you, Pam. So good to connect with you. We've overlapped a couple times in our trajectories and it's really lovely to sit down and have a conversation with you today. I agree. And I think we both are victims of being members of very dry professions. And when we meet others that kind of have a spark of life and fun and just, you know, really getting at this for all the right reasons, we tend to connect. But interestingly, two totally different people who I don't even think are connected themselves connected us. So you were a problem on my little mind map because I had to figure out how to draw a couple of arrows. But tell us a little bit about how you know the two people who connected us because that's how we'll start our conversation here. Yeah, absolutely. So Melissa who connected us back in the day. Melissa who, yeah, is kind of a like a Swiss army knife for her clients, depending on what they need. Yes, that does describe it. Shout out to Melissa. Right. And so I've known Melissa for several years. She's become a client. We've been in touch. We actually spoke just not too long ago. So that was the first introduction. And then Brian, who is one of my very favorite people and also favorite clients who, you know, I think was down. Is he still in the Phoenix area? Yeah, at least the retreat I went to in the Phoenix area. Totally. So we've actually never met face to face, but he was a client for quite some time and he has sent me many referral since and we've been in touch and I love Brian. So yeah, he is a beautiful, beautiful soul. He really, really is. And he shout out to Brian as well. He's got a great podcast too now where he is really digging into people's like, their struggles, how they've gotten through them and how they've kind of risen above them, what we've all had. But so here what we Focus on really is relationships. So I'm just going to ask you a couple questions because I really, what we really want people to know when they listen to this is it is okay to need help and it's okay to be help. And doing this alone sucks. So first question for you, looking back, what relationship that you've had since you've been doing this solo and I guess first question is, how long have you been at this? I've been practicing law now since 2002. So yeah, we're, we are literally bumping up to the 22 year mark almost exactly. Because the bar exam results get released in. It's either late October, early November. Okay. I was practicing law before then. I know I was one of those, I know I was one of those that like, I was like, I can't wait around to make money until. Because I launched my own practice right out of school. You did it right out of school? Right out of school. Which was insane. That's incredible. Yeah, I was very non traditional person in the law and we can talk a little bit about why, but it, I just had a very, actually start. There because I'm going to save the question I was going to ask because I think it might become relevant. But you did something a lot of entrepreneurs don't do. You did it right out of school. So what drove that? So a couple things. One is I went through a law school trajectory that was probably different than most people in law school. And like many people, I went right from undergrad into law school. UW also had a combination of students who had some life experience and then came to the law program. But I was one of those that went straight through. And, and in my first year my mom was diagnosed like actually within my first couple months with glioblastoma. And so her. That first year of my law school experience, I was traveling home across the state and spending basically Wednesday night, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday with my family and my mom and then traveling back to Seattle. And I would do law school Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and then. Wow. And so that was my whole first year of law school at UW here in Seattle University. You got a little drive in you, huh? I got a lot of. Well, drive, yeah. Drive and then drive. Drive like point. Yeah. So yeah, I, it was a lot of driving time. And also. Yeah, it, you know, I, I was very clear. I mean it became clear. Right. Was not a choice for any of us. But it became clear in a hurry. Law school is just a thing you do in life. And then the whole other bigger Picture is life itself. And, you know, things really, I think, can catalyze just in an instant and become very clear when a life event like that happened. Totally. And my mom was young, she's younger than I am now, when she was diagnosed and passed away. And so, you know, it was a journey for all of us. And what it meant is that my journey through law school, I very quickly figured out I was not willing to walk somebody else's path. I was not willing to even follow the traditional advice around. Here's how you have to do things in order to get to, you know, point Z. You have to do ABC and blah, blah, blah. And it, you know, lost. Was that in your nature before your mom got so sick, or do you think it was because your mom got so sick? Appreciation for that's a really good question. Yeah, I think it was in my nature before that. Yeah, I was an unusual kid in a. In a variety of ways, but. But that really crystallized it, like, from the standpoint of, you know, when you're faced literally with the death of somebody that is so dear to you, you know, it. It changes your perspective on timelines. It changes your perspective on how you spend your own time in life. And I just, you know, as I progressed and she passed away the start of my second year, and as I finished my. Yeah, we had 10. 10 months with her. So that was a really rough journey. And also, you know, dramatically influenced my perspective on what I was willing to do and not willing to do. And I think unless you have those kinds of times where you're really forced through a vigorous examination of your choices and your potential choices. Yeah, you don't always choose in the most clear way what is for you and what is not for you. And so for me, it, you know, it started with that. And then as I started to go through the interview process, I mean, I interviewed at big firms down. Oh, you did interview? Oh, yeah. I went through the traditional path. I. I mean, in some ways, because you participate in the, you know, the whole. Oh, got it. Yeah. And. And so I interviewed at big firms downtown. And at the same time, walking through those firms, I was like, this is not for me. In one of my interviews, it was like a roundtable interview. There were 10 attorneys and one or two women. And when I got to an individual pull out with one of the women, where we went into her office, I said, how is it. How is it to work out this firm as a woman? She got up and closed the door and got back to her desk and said, it's not great. Wow. I was like, thank God for her. Honesty and passing that on. Right, right. I was like, boom, done. That's all I really need to know. Is that a partner that did that? Bless her heart. Yeah. So. So, you know, and, and based on that, I, I just was like, nope, I'm not. Like, I'm just not going to participate in a system that I, I can't support and that doesn't provide like even walking through. I mean whether you call it intuition or just paying attention to humans, this whole relationship thing, how they looked, how their energy felt, whether they had closed door or open door offices, it so. Young to pick up on those things. I was clueless in my twenties, like clueless. But some of what you're describing kind of didn't come to me till I got much older, so. And interestingly, my dad died when I was young too. A lot younger though, so I was still very much in self 12 year old narcissistic mode. Right. I wasn't adult enough probably to make that same connection that you did and followed a very traditional path. Now I loved it every bit of the way, but I just love the insight you had at that age. That's incredible. So. Well, I'm going to change my first question a little bit based on that. In school then you probably had counselors or teachers and then you probably had some maybe mentors in the profession. I don't know. Did anybody align with how you were thinking and like encourage the approach you were taking at all? Anybody stand out as. Absolutely. I was one of maybe eight kids that took issues in solo practice class my third year of law school. Okay. Eight kids, that's it. Very small tells you how challenging of a pathway that was perceived. Right. And most people either got funneled into big law, medium sized law, or government work. That's just how law school changes the landscape for you. You come in with big ideas and you leave kind of fitting this mold for the most part. And so I sat through that class and I just remember thinking like, this is doable, like, and not that I had any amount of confidence related to me being able to do it, but like, you know what, like some people, and I'm not saying like do it right out of law school, that maybe it wasn't necessarily, but the closer that I got, the less everything else seemed like a fit. Right. And so. And if you talk to anybody in law as a young person like, oh, I wanted to do international law or even environmental law, which again is a very unique niche to get Yourself into. There's limited spots for that. Okay. But international law, they'll tell you, like, oh, well, nobody comes out of law school and just does international. Like, you got to work for a while before you go. But it's that kind of chronic messaging of, like, no, you don't really get to do work you want to do. You have to do all this other work for a while. And I just wasn't willing to do it. Yeah. Was there any fear or trepidation? Like, did you know what you were in for? I absolutely did not know what I was in. Probably Right. I was living in a studio apartment at the time. I literally, like, got a divider, like, because I had. I had to do something to, you know, to, like, create a workspace. This was still. I mean, we're talking, you know, 22 years ago. I made my own letterhead. I printed off little business cards. I emailed. I went to law school with the guy who wrote Excel for Microsoft. And the whole reason. Yeah, the whole reason he was going to law school. He didn't need to be employed ever again in his life, but he wanted to donate. Donate the rest of his career to the aclu. Wow. That was the sole reason for going to law school. And we were also jealous of him. And I've told this story once or twice before, but he was the one I put kid in air quotes. He was an adult. He was the one kid at law school that had two sets of books. He could leave a set of his books at home, and the rest of us were lugging around like, backpacks that weighed a hundred pounds. It was before the iPad. Your books on your iPad. Oh, my gosh, it was insane. We were so jealous of him. Right. Both of his intellectual capacity that he did not have to look at the same book that he'd read or highlighted or put notes in, you know, the day before. Yep. Anyways, he was a really interesting person, but I used Excel talking about relationships to set up my first outreach campaign, my first database. Again, in air quotes. Right. This is pre ne that I have used since. Yep. And I just put myself on a schedule of outreach. I didn't know anybody. I knew instinctively, though, it was about relationships, if that's what you did first. Oh, totally. I just knew. Even in a down market. Because the other thing is, I graduated in 029 11, right after Enron. Well. And yeah, 911 had just happened. Right thing. Doors were closing. Companies were putting moratoriums on hiring, on any growth trajectories. For a time. It was A really weird time. And by weird, it was the worst time in 30 years to be graduating from law school. Yeah, I think you're right. Yeah. And so I just. But I thought, you know what? There's work out there. The work is going to shift, and you just have to know people to get the work. And I can do people. So I just put myself on an outreach campaign, and it really didn't matter, like, if your name ended up in the newspaper and it was about some case. I was going to call you that week. If you. If you called me because I had my car for sale and I learned you an attorney, I was going to call you back and be like, hey, can we go have lunch? I want to learn about your career. I love it. So I just put myself on a trajectory of one meeting per day, face to face. Love that. Within months, I had more work than I knew what to do with. And that's all that it took was getting face to face with people. I want to unpack that because this is one of the things that's just so true, whether you're on a career path and you're looking for a new job or whether you're an entrepreneur. And I was just talking about this with one of my coaches this morning. Is the work is the relationships. You don't have to chase the money. Right. I don't even know how to articulate it. Well, you knew going in, I'm just going to talk to people. I'm going to make friends and talk to people. That leads to the stuff you don't have to make. You can almost make the relationships the goal, and out comes the rest. And that's what's so amazingly cool about it. And I would bet that. And this is something that. An interesting question for me is, is there somebody along the way that, like, very casual relationship that you have that just ended up being, like, making a huge impact on your trajectory? Like somebody that you just, you know, oh, hi, how are you? But they ended up being absolutely. So multiple people along the way. I'll speak primarily about one. And, you know, people show up for you in different ways. Here's what I was really surprised about in doing this level of outreach. And, you know, a lot of people would, like, call it cold calling or, you know, whatever. I. I saw it as just connecting. And I would, like, research the person, research their work, research their PR. It didn't take long. I'm a fast reader. 30 minutes. Totally. And I knew about show interest. You had interest? Yes. Yeah. And so, you know, There was some element of preparing for every time I met somebody. But also along the way, like, people just become a mentor. They see, like, oh, this is a young person I can help. And I think I was, I was good at being humble. Meaning, like, I don't know how to do this and love it. One of the biggest skills I learned over the course of my early career is like, you don't have to have all the answers. You just have to know how to ask for help from somebody who does. You don't even have to know all the questions. No, you don't. And, and I mean, I have some funny examples around that where like, I used the wrong terminology. I didn't even say the word right. An attorney would be looking at me being like, let me help you. You don't know what you're talking about. And I'm like, you're right. This is why I'm here asking for help. And I think some people are really afraid to like, be that obvious. Yeah, that kind of learner's mind and beginner's mind because there's such a need for us all to feel competent and, you know, demonstrate that we know what we're doing. And I would say one of the biggest lessons I've learned throughout my career is everybody is winging it. Everybody. I love that. And isn't that interesting when it really becomes evident? Yeah. And it's, and it's not winging it in a bad way, but basically each new scenario is a new scenario, new set of facts and problems, and all you can bring is your problem solving to that problem. Like whatever your field is. Right. Your experience, your filters, all of that contributes. But the truth of the matter is you've never seen that situation before. So you're putting everything you have to work for it. But in a way, we're winging. And I honestly think that's a big part of what people confuse and say is imposter syndrome. Yes. And it's not imposter syndrome if you're really good at applying what you have to the next thing, you're really good at what you do. Yeah. And yet you're winging it. Totally. And the open mindedness. So you asked about a key person. So a few years into my career, I'd gotten myself onto this massive piece of litigation where I was essentially, for lack of a better word, I was like the litigation custodian for our team. So there was about 200,000 pages of documentation. It was a massive construction defect case involving some really high ups at Microsoft and anyways, it was a significant local case. At any given point you might have had 30, 40, 50 attorneys involved in this case because you had contractors, you had subcontractors, you had insurance companies of various kinds belonging to all these businesses. Like it was a very communication and discovery intensive case. And so my job was to manage all of this. And the, the case had largely been with one firm and then they got connected to another firm who brought in counsel. I mean they brought in counsel from the second firm. And this was a guy's name's Peter Buck, who I ended up working with on many follow on cases. Okay. And so even though I was independent, I, I would do my own work and have my own clients, but then I would also hire myself onto some of these big cases so that I could continue to get mentoring from really established attorneys. And it was just a great combination for me because I was good at finding mentors. They people are generally very generous. Even attorneys who can have a bad name if like it's. Anyways, that's a whole nother conversation. And so this guy, I ended up working with him for years in this kind of, you know, collaborative but independent capacity and learned so much from his approach to thinking, to problem solving, to law. And it was this extreme open mindedness of like we can shift at any time based on what we learn. And also there are no mistakes. Who says that in law? Like who? Nobody says that, but it's so true law. You don't know what's going to happen. No. And nobody says that. And even when you make mistakes, those are inevitable. They're inevitable in any career, in any pathway. You're going to learn through those mistakes. And he was just a big proponent of taking that pressure off and being like, look, I'm going to push you and I'm going to have you. Like one example, there was an attorney in our office who we brought in from Oregon, had not yet passed the Washington bar. Pete forgot this and we had a deposition the next day on this particular case and this was not my case. And Pete comes to me at like

5: 23:54

00, end of day, like on a Monday. Hey Heather, there's a like the key deposition in this case that has to happen tomorrow. I need you to take it. And I was like, okay, where's the project binder? He's like, no, you're, I'm not letting you hyper focus on this tonight or do anything by way of preparation. You just show up tomorrow and you're going to ask every question under the sun and It'll be fine. I remember thinking, oh my gosh. Wow. And it's going to sound like it. What? I. It's exactly what I did. I showed up the next day, I handled the deposition based on everything we got out of that deposition. We ended up bringing a summary judgment against the other party. We ended up bringing a CR11, which CR11 for people that don't know. Like, you've got rules of professional conduct that apply to your profession. Yes, right. I've got rules of professional conduct that apply to my profession. If you're in any licensed profession, you've. Got these, these license, get expelled and all the things. Right, Totally. Yeah. And so. Right. And if you bring a frivolous lawsuit. Right. You're in violation of CR11. And so CR11, once we took the deposition and realized how much information and proof was missing on the other side, you can bring a CR11 sanctions motion against. It's not even against the opposing party, it's against opposing counsel. Wow. We got over 75 or $80,000 in fees against opposing counsel because of this case. And it was purely based on the deposition I took and it was not my case. And then the follow up, the follow up CR11 motion, which I drafted. And this is, this is the. It's both the irony of what can happen when we get into a profession and we think we need to have all the answers. Yep, Yep. Really, we need to just be willing to go look for all the answers. That is so, so key and not feel deficient when we don't have them. And that goes for me still today, there are questions where I'm like, you know what? Well, actually, probably for you as well, nine times out of 10 when there's a complex question, I don't know the answer, but I know where to look or I know what to dig up or I know how to think about it. And I think that's probably the same for you as well. But so you really had like an awesome mentor as you were coming up. And we're also getting paid at the same time. And I think that's a really key point. You know, seek out other people who are doing what you're doing and work alongside them, Pull up alongside them and watch what they do. I just love that. Yeah. And on that point, I think it's really important, especially for young people, anybody who's early in their career, early in their work, to also be very careful in who you decide to pull up alongside. Right. And this is in part because I think a lot of young People can be like, well, I don't know the answer, so they must be doing it right. But you can always run that gut check and that ethics check of like, is this how I want to be doing business or how I want to be practicing? And I think if more people felt free to actually really question the status quo and question the system, we would have more people being more creative in their businesses, in their practices, and not trying to just look like the rest of the marketplace. I agree so completely. And it's part of why I really enjoy working with entrepreneurs now is because this generation of entrepreneurs, and I guess it's kind of Gen X down to whatever the current generation is, I lose. Track of all the right gen Z gen generation, I don't know, but they. Think differently and they challenge the status quo. And all of the things that I didn't like about how business was done in corporate, they're just challenging them left and right. And I think that's really important because especially when we're young or just stepping into entrepreneurial roles after we've come out of corporate, it's like walking into a desert from a jungle or vice versa. We don't trust ourselves and we start to question our gut. And there is a plethora of people who will try to give you advice and trust your gut is what I would say if it doesn't feel right. Yeah. Even if you can't articulate it, it's worth stepping back. And maybe that's not the right person. You should feel completely aligned with whoever you're working with. And I think that's something we often forget. I know you learned so much of this at a young age. I didn't learn it till I was 50 or 60. But to really trust my gut, I think that's really, really cool. Okay, one more and then I'll let you go. I've held you for a long time here, but did you have a time at any point in your business and where things were kind of in desperate straits, like it went south on you for a little while for whatever reason, you know, and certainly coming right out of school, you. You built a pattern right away that would serve you, I'm sure, throughout the career, but maybe it was at that very beginning. Is there a particular relationship that helps save. Help you save your business or that turned you around and you're thinking about it maybe? Oh, that's such a good question. I mean, I think there have been various people. If you've been in business, you know, for decades, you recognize various people. Have become lifelines in some either big or small way. You know, along the way, those people that shape us. There we go. Okay, so yeah, no worries. Real estate. Yeah. So there, there was a point, and this was around the time that I had my son, where even though I'd always been non traditional in the law, I really believed I could come up with a model to do it better. And it's funny how you kind of get forced into those positions sometimes, right? So I like the exact moment where I was like, something has to change. I had just purchased a new Mac laptop, I was breastfeeding my son. I had a real estate closing that was not of my necessary choice. This was actually a individual in my life who kind of forced it on me. And out of obligation I felt like, oh my gosh, I've got to handle this for them. And so I had a, like, oh, so much work to do. First of all, a real estate closing of that size, typically it's going to take months to prepare for and you're going to have a team. It was like a commercial closing. Is that commercial? Yeah. Basically the bank was going to repo a piece of property and this, this person would have not only lost their investment in the property, but their home had been mortgaged in order to, you know, to hang on to or acquire that property. So they would have lost more than just the commercial property. It was a really high pressure situation. There were multiple people involved on the back end and yeah. And anyways, the, the short of the story is that it was a complete and total circus and I got it done in a week. We got a hard. Yes, with a baby and a hard money lender that had to step in and take over the financing so that this whole thing didn't fall apart. Putting new documentation in place. Anyways, it was a complete mess. Cluster, absolute cluster. Yes. And with a new baby and trying to breastfeed, like it was just the worst combination. And I just remember thinking there has to be a different way, like these timeline intensive projects that are beyond my control because some of them just are, you know, like this is not, not only this is not how like my career in legal should be, but also proactively. There's more that can be done for a certain subset of clients. How do I create a model that is proactive instead of letting people get to the point of cross crisis where really terrible things are happening. And you know, it was that moment in combination with a lot of creative thinking that, you know, turned into my second business. The legal website Warrior and because one of my favorite clients all along the way had been entrepreneurs and small business owners. Got it. And that's where you found your passion too. Totally. And it had always been my passion. It just evolved into like this more obvious scenario. And then, you know, your next question about anybody who really catalyzed that along the way. I immediately hired a business coach to help me get the concept down and clear and launched. And I will say the, the quick takeaway from that experience with a business coach. And it doesn't matter who it is. Right. Who you're working with. It's about right fit, right time and right fit for that problem. Yep. And this was just a, you know, a perfect combination. And he was like, look, you don't, you don't need a website. You don't need any of the stuff that people tell you that you need. You just need a message and you need to know who you can serve. And I was enrolling literally some of the top clients in my industry, even without a new revised website that, that spoke clearly about who I was serving and what I was doing. It was through emails. Love it. And here's the way that I think I can help you. The basics again. Yes, it was back to basics. And so the irony of starting the second business that was largely quote unquote, online. Yeah. Is it was built in the same way I'd built my first business, which was just through relationship building and preparation for preparation. Those people knowing who you were talking to. And that's actually something I want to hit on because everybody needs to know about you. So we're going to drop all the information you've provided in the notes for the podcast, both on YouTube and in all of the various places people are listening, but I know they're going to be interested. Can you just take. I know I've kept you a long time here, but can you just give us a quick kind of summary of the, of how your online business works? Because I just love it. Yeah, no, I. Thank you. And I'll try to keep this short because I am a talker. I. We're on a podcast. You can talk. Perfect. The short of my online business is really, I wanted to bring automation business systems. So you've probably heard of like, personalities like Jane Powers who does the speak to sell system. She talks about like Catalyst, you know, relators who are real relationship people, optimizers and then experts. I'm a combination of all of those. So in my business, I, I not only. Yes. I'm all the archetypes And I'm also the optimizer and the expert, which means I want to do things really efficiently. So you can imagine, as in your industry, there are probably things that are really bothersome because they. Yes. They just make it take too long. The process is really cumbersome. Right. So I just kept thinking I can create a model that speeds things up, gets people resources quickly targeted to them. It's a little bit like crowdsourcing legal services for a very particular kind of business. Prices can come down, access can go up, and people can get what they need in a very different way. And you focus narrowly. Right, on online business owners. Yes. Online information entrepreneurs. They're usually largely experts, maybe service providers, a lot of consultants, a lot of agencies, but they all live in a very similar space. Yep, I love it. And so how did. Well, to tell us quickly how people can best find you because I know there could be a lot of people looking to find out how to reach out. Yeah, absolutely. So legal website warrior. Just how it sounds. Dot com. I'm on LinkedIn. Right. I'm on all the places. I'm not great at social media, but you can come connect with me on LinkedIn. I do love my website because I've poured so many resources, including free resources into the website as a way to like really serve and educate people first. I'm a big believer you can help create the kind of client you want to do work with. That's brilliant. Do that through educating. So I'm really a believer in educate first so that the marketplace is better, everybody making better decisions. So, yeah, hop over to my website. You'll see Pam coming up on the guts, grit and great business. I know. I can't wait to talk to you tomorrow. Totally. Which is also there. So once your episode comes out, we'll have to cross link. But yeah, I love it. And we are going to feature Heather in our weekly update soon, so we'll have the information there as well to our email list. So I can't thank you enough for jumping on with us. I am thrilled to have you on my mind map, even if you mess up my OCD a little bit with your two lines. Sorry, sorry. So glad we met. I feel like we're kind of warriors on the same battlefield carrying different weapons and I really, really am glad to be connected to you and. And means the world to me. You hopped on with us today to share a. A bunch of wisdom with people. I can't wait to tear this apart. I always go back and listen and write down the nuggets that I've pulled out of it. So thank you. Thank you, Pam. So lovely to be here. I really appreciate you. All right. And everybody, you know, you have questions for Heather. You now know how to reach her. You have questions for me, you know, to drop them here in the comments. Give us a Subscribe a like a download and we'll be here for you with more Know youw Map segments and back next week with our regular Cash Flow podcast. Have a great week. Thanks so much for watching the Cash Flow podcast with us. We want to bring more and more of this to you. So please like share, subscribe, comment so that we can keep bringing more of this content to.